i saw some barbell selling today. one part of the barbell, the kellogg proctor side really, really soggy. the other end, the material side that goes to china. that, too, not so great. what took up the slack? the industrials looked terrific and you still get a lot of

retailers that look good. so remember, they're just rotating from expensive to cheaper. like i say, there's always a bull market good evening everyone i'm larry kudlow. this is "the kudlow report". a new pope from the new world. pope francis i was introduced to the world tonight. the questions begin. can he reform the church's weaknesses. will he lead the church to new strengthens. will he be a catholic evangelist. for now he's just asking us to pray for him. from spiritual to material. a blockbuster retail sales report. the whole my is better than you think. the major indexes are up and the dow on its longest winning streak in 16 years. is the president's republican charm offensive for real? another tough question. before he met with republican leaders he told abc news he

doesn't think we have a real debt crisis. that is an odd thing to say don't you think? then he added the political gap may be too wide for a compromised deal another rather odd thing to say. we're "the kudlow report" and we begin right now. first up this evening the catholic church has a new leader. tonight 76-year-old pope francis making history the first pontiff from the americas and the first from outside europe in more than a millennium. mary thompson joins us now with the details. good evening. >> an exciting day for many catholics around the world. pope francis introduced about an hour after white smoke rose from the sistine chapel. the former jorge mario bergoglio elected after five votes by the

115 cardinals. the speed reflecting the conclave's family later with the archbishop who was a runner up to pope benedict xvi. he told the crowd the cardinals had to go to the end of the world to find a new pope while praying for him and pope mr. advertise benedict. he's a jesuit the first in his order to ascend to the papal throne. their mission is focused on the front lines of their congregation. jorge mario bergoglio known for his humility, abandonment of the trappings that come with the office. he's known for his advocacy for the poor. he's spoken about how globalization has hurt the under privileged noting latin america is a region that's grown the most while reducing misreary the least. catholics hoping for a pope that might give in on some be social

issues. he's believed to be orthodox in bitter control and same sex marriage. he's taken priests to task for refusing to baptize children born out of wedlock. he left with these words pray for me i'll see you soon. >> a wonderful report. i liked the part about riding buses i really do. sounds like he's more of a pastoral priest. >> that's what you you've heard about him. he spent most of his career in argentina. he's a jesuit. their mission basically is to serve on front line, to go out and teach and serve the congregations. i think his choice of the name francis is reflective of his humility and embrace of a simpler life. and basically he came from a

wealthy family, abandoned all the trappings, lived a simple life and brought great change to the church at a time when it was in dire need. >> the vatican said you need to make some major changes. here we have former conference of catholic spokeswoman now with the family research council and with us for the full hour lanny davis and michael steele. kathy thank you for this. i want to ask a couple of things. before i get to whether he's going to be an evangelist or whatever the vatican has major problems. the vatican bank has major problems. the church has not cleaned up these sex scandals. as someone who is a weekly church gore these things trouble me enormously. how will he handle it? >> it sounds like he's a good administrator.

he's respected for the work he's done in his archdiocese in buenos aires. people have high hopes this will be a pastor that's most important of course but a good manager and frankly a good reformer if these things need reform inside the vatican. >> lanny, a lot of things i want to get to away from the field of management. we're talking about a pope. everybody that i talked to says the same thing. the vatican has to be cleaned up, it needs new people to run it. the vatican bank has become a financial disaster. as you know from reading the newspapers, you don't have to be catholic to understand they have to clean up the whole sex problem. there's still lingering issues. what's your thinking? >> my thinking when you described pope francis and talked to michael before as caring for the poor, the helpless, the victims, the victims, the children, the children. if he starts talking about the children and the victims of

catholic clergy, he's got to speak and talk about it and then he can do many things about it but he has to start talking about it more than in the general terms of pope benedict to me that's a crisis management piece of advice. >> put it on the table. >> talk about it. >> deal with it directly. what tuning about that advice? >> i think that's smart advice. you can see that from this pope or you will see that from this pope. he has in the past gone up intelligence the establishment if you will. he's gone outside of the normal processes to effect the change that's necessary. and i think, you you know, don't want to put too much on the first few hours or days of a pope, give him time to get into it. cutting through the kuria of the roman catholic church is not an easy thing to do. >> where's the state department, where is the u.s. government? >> as much as those give lip service to reform and how much

change they brag about they want to bring it doesn't come easy. it takes time, it takes work. this man, there's something about him that's different. and i really am hopeful and prayerfully so he brings that spirit that lanny is talking about but also the stick that's going to be necessary to get it done. >> let me come back to you somebody who was a catholic convert some 16 years ago. will this pope be an van gellizer. will he take the message of the bible outside around the world. pope benedict said he would. he started to. i think he tired up. will this pope pick up where benedict left off and bring it in a personal way to millions of people around the world? >> well, you look at this man and what we see is a man with the mind of a jesuit and the manner of a francescan.

he was a teacher at heart. he taught psychology and literature. and he has degrees in chemistry and philosophy. he's a rou-rounded intellectual. he's embracing humility and the simple life. what a role model for everybody today in this age of decadence and distraction of worldly things to see this man choosing to live radical simplicity for his position in life. i think symbolically he can do so much to bring the symbolism of christ to the world. this man is a pastor and a teacher, and that is something that we really need in the church today. so i think it was a joyful day. my little girls go to a catholic school. when the principal rang the bell they all came running out of their classrooms to watch the tv after the white smoke rose.

1.2 billion catholics are celebrating their adoption by a new spiritual father. >> there's some shrinkage. shrinkage in europe, the usa, at least actively practicing and shrinkage in latin america. >> but growth in other areas if clueding africa. that's why you had the thoughts, there were two front runners from africa. there's growth in other parts of the world. excuse me for interrupting. >> i want to ask you about this combination of a jesuit and a francescan. to me you need some of the qualities of a pastoral priest to do this right. one on one. families. priests. here's my advice. here's my judgment. here's the church. here's what jesus has to say about it. key do it? >> it's difficult to do to it 1.2 billion people. in pope francis, we don't know him that well he spent most of his time in argentina but he's someone who appears to be someone you can follow because

he's a man of do as i do not so much as do as i say because of the way he's chosen to live his life in a simplistic way in service to the poor and to his country. that's something we have to watch. again, i think it's encouraging to hear he's a good administrator because as you mentioned financial issues in the church that he'll have to address and importantly to deal with the curia his most important selection will be secretary of state because they serve as the chief administrative officer of the vatican. >> his appointments, particularly the first bunch of appointments in the financial sphere and bureaucratic organizations sphere will be so important. >> one thing within the financial sphere, you might recall that about a year or so ago the president of the vatican bank was ousted rather unser unceremoniously. his goal is getting the vatican bank and keeping it with eu

standards and benedict made some steps to improve the bank and the financial accounting of the vatican. there's more work to be done. the hope is francis continues the work. >> before i lose this whole topic i want you and kathy to weigh in. on some of these key social issues, religious issues, moral issues, traditional marriage, pro life, contraception, celibate priests do you expect any change? >> no. owes going to be where the church has been for the last 40 or 50 years, particularly as those issues have arisen in the context of whether u.s. law roe v. wade or what we've seen recently on gay marriage not just here but globally. i think the church that's been throughout its history a constant voice. it is the one thing that you can always go back to. and so there is that stability i think that this pope will want to maintain.

>> kathy as quickly as you can, you heard what michael steele said about some of these traditional social issues, do you agree? >> i do agree. in fact, the fact that and he was jesuit was held against him a little bit in the past. at the last conclave there were some questioning of him in that regard. but he has in fact taken some bows and arrows from jesuit of a more liberal bent. so i don't expect anything but a continuation. >> very good. thank you ever so much. mary thompson great stuff all day today. now we go from the spiritual to the material. that's what the kudlow show does. we had blockbuster retail sales. this economy is stronger than you think. that may be a triumph.

president obama says there's no immediate debt crisis. he thinks we're clear for the next ten years. sir, are you sure? we'll have the details four on that debate and doesn't forget free market capitalism is always the best path to ross peter. later in the show we'll show you a violation of it that blows my mind. i'm kudlow. we'll be right back. revolutionizing an industry can be a tough act to follow,

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welcome back. i want to do some kudlow 101 on the economy because i think the american economy is better than you think. let me give you some key data points today starting out with this blockbuster retail sales number. 1.1% blew the lid off everyone. nobody expected that. i got a smooth path here that shows that retail sales continue. this is core retail sales that goes into gdp is doing better than you think. i don't think anybody had this number at all. now let's go to two other charts. isms are out already. i want to remind you besides retail sale isms very important coincident and leading indicators. this is the ism index, i believe

it is for manufacturing. look at the rally that it's had in the last few months and let's do it one more time. here's the ism for services. this is like 80% of the economy. this one goes back to summer time. it's had its rally. so these are important points. and i want to get them occupant because i continue to believe that the economy is stronger than you think. i moderate ad panel today of ceos at the business roundtable. no, not all of them the six on my panel or the other 150 in the crowd may not agree with me but a lot of them did. i just want to take this takeaway point. american business which runs the economy, okay may i say that again. american businesses, large, medium and small that runs the economy. they are in good shape. they have tightened their belts. they have become more productive. they are profitable. they have huge cash flow. they have much, much better balance sheets. that's driving this story. and don't tell me the stock market is in a bubble because i am not going to believe it.

we are fundamentally at an important point in the economy if washington doesn't smother it. all right. that's my positive take on the economy. coming up we have a real bull/bear debate on "the kudlow report". later tonight america has a new pope. america is glued to the history channel watching "the bible." it is really such a surprise that a religious and historical program is doing so well? superstar producer mark burnett and actress roma downing will join us later in the program.

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tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 at 800-435-4000. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 please read the prospectus carefully before investing. so, so, as i said in kudlow 101 on the economy, the economy is stronger than you think. the dow by the way closes higher for the ninth day in a row. let's bring in some experts. brian, i don't know if you saw those charts, retail sales, ism, ism. i don't think we're growing at 6% but i think we're doing better than most people think and i think we're doing it because of business, in spite of washington, and i say that on a bipartisan basis. what's your thought? >> exactly, larry. i wrote a book back in 2009. it said it's not as bad as you

think. and we've grown for 13 going on 14 straight quarters now. and if you look at retail sales, if you look at employment, if you look at those ism reports like you did, they all show a picture that the economy in 2013 is stronger than it was in 2012. we call it the plow horse economy. it's not a racehorse. it's a plow horse. and i think the plow horse might just trot a little bit in 2013. 2.5% to 3% growth is what we expect to see. >> a lot of people are moving into that zone. i've seen a lot of three percenters. steve cortez welcome back. unfortunately you have a pessimistic tilt in your notes. what's wrong, buddy? >> listen i agree with you larry. i agree with most of the commentary that the u.s. economy is stronger than you think.

the problem isn't the u.s. economy it's the world economy. and i think the world economy is much weaker than you think. and don't take my word for it simply look at global indices, particularly emerging markets and most importantly china the number two economy in the world. china today closed on the loss of t -- lows the year. china is significantly underperforming. i don't believe the u.s. in this global economy the u.s. can effectively go it alone. that's what the stock market has done so far but i don't think it's sustainable. >> brian westberry what do you think, will china hold up our recovery? >> i don't think so. look back at 1989, japan back then was the second largest economy in the world. it collapsed. and then in the 1990s the u.s. economy boomed. >> first we had a very severe recession in the early '90s. >> it wasn't very severe but we

had a recession. we boomed in the 1990s. we already had our recession. swrap has been down for 20 years. if that's all we get i'll take it. the bottom line is what's driving -- >> the point i want to make is -- steve cortez no red herrings. look it's about american business my friend. that's the key point. government doesn't create jobs, businesses creates jobs. government crates the environment. you know i'm a supply sider. these ceos are all talking about this stuff. they got cash flow. good balance sheets. they are making pretty good money. they are worried about the rest of the world but they are not petrified of the rest of the world. again i'm asking you what your missing? are you ready to reconsider? >> no i'm not now and another reason is bond traders don't believe.

i believe on the whole bond traders are smarter and more correct than stock traders. just today the u.s. government was able to auction off $21 billion of ten year notes for a yield that was a fraction above 2%. the bond market does not see any significant pick up in growth, no inflation hide. bond traders don't price in a very muddled scenario. >> there's no inflation. i'm not saying the economy is growing at 5%. but i like this 2.5%, 3%. i'm a reagan supply sider. i'm not a support of president obama's numbers. and my brethren won't acknowledge things are getting better. america needs things to get better. >> if you have got denials on your side, denials on my side that don't look at $16 trillion of debt and the president who i voted for says he doesn't think that's a problem i have a

14-year-old and 8-year-old that he's using credit cards every day that my kids are paying the receipts for. that's wrong. simpson-bowles would be saying to obama you got be kidding me we don't have a debt issue. >> we'll talk about that more in the next segment. michael steele you talk to business. how do you see this? >> i think you and brian pretty much have it square on the helped. this is to the broader point that a lot of conservatives in washington and around the country still have. you're right the data is the data. the numbers are the numbers. the numbers are showing a trend line that's good, 2%, 3% growth. >> not perfect. >> here's the reality. unemployment. i appreciate the point about, you know, the jobs are being created but let's get two or three months in a row of 236,000 jobs being created then i'll know we've turned the corner. that's why business has the confidence but it's not as high us a think it should be.

>> brian i want to ask you the business round table people are not optimistic about employment. that was the one area they were not optimistic in their polls. can you just give me real quick, give me 15 seconds. real quick. >> we're not going to have 4% unemployment again until we shrink the size of government. every where you look around the world where there's big government there's high unemployment. that's what's true about the united states today. >> we have more work to do. no one denies that. now we're going to talk some more about this delicate issue president obama met with republican house leaders today and his charm offensive for some kind of a budget deal but there were fireworks inside that meeting and we'll hear about it from one of the republican congresswoman who was there next up on kudlow. [ kitt ] you know what's impressive?

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welcome back to "the kudlow report". i'm larry kudlow. in this half hour big sugar companies get a sweet taxpayer bailout from the government while consumers get screwed. it's a total opposite of free market economics and we'll get

to the bottom of it. i want makes my blood boil. and better news. the bible mini series is a huge hit on cable. yes it's about the history and western civilization. it's also, however about religion. why shouldn't it be taught in our public schools? president obama headed back to capitol hill this afternoon continuing his charm offensive for a big budget compromise. according to reports the president's first meeting with the house gop conference in more than two years proved rather tense as republicans challenged him on spending, taxes, a balanced budget and even closing the white house to public tours. for more insight on what the someone like we're joined by congress warm candice miller. miss miller, thank you. what was your particular gripe at mr. obama today and how tough of that meeting? >> well, you know, i guess it's his charm offensive and actually i think it's working because i think he's becoming charmed by

the house republicans. >> but you went after him. >> i asked him a question that we are just getting bombarded with here on capitol hill. i said mr. president we're all dealing with sequestration, the house members have taken a 5% than 6% and now a 8% cut to our own budgets. we're dealing with the sequester best we can. no one has ever thought or made any mention about closing the capitol or capitol visitor's center or this beautiful house office building you see in the rear. nobody said that. mr. president, if you have to close the white house to tours and you need money take it out of our hide that's exactly what i said to him. i said we don't have to come to the white house for a christmas party. don't invite us over for the white house picnic. there are a lot of events we don't need to come. let the children come. i thought it was very symbolic. >> what did he say? how did he answer you >> he said it was not his

decision, that it was made by the secret service. >> oh, come on. >> please. >> come on. >> that is a controversy as we know, his own press secretary jay carney actually debunked that yesterday and said the secret service gave the white house options and that was the option they chose. so i'm not sure it's really the right thing for the president to do to throw the secret service under the bus. >> all right. throw the secret service under the bus. well put. lanny davis last segment you started to talk about this. the president in his interview with george stephanopoulos said there's no debt crisis. he also said a balanced bill for his own sake is not important. what's your take on that? why is he going down that road? >> i don't know. it's an inconsistent statement to what he committed to erskine bowles and what he said at his second inauguration. i have family that will pay for these credit card resent. barack obama has to know liberal

democrats consider it a moral issue that our children have to pay for the debt. >> 100% of gdp. you're using the full gross debt story including the intergovernment account -- best way to do it. 100% of gdp. the experts, once you go over 90%, 100% of gdp you got a big problem. i don't understand why he's saying what he's saying. >> the thing that could stop this economic growth you're predicting is if the interest payments go up so high we're network pay interest on our debt and that's what my children are looking at. i just don't understand how president obama is a good man and just missing the younger generation moral issue that allows this debt to continue. >> michael steele one way to help the debt is to grow the economy. what really matters here is debt to gdp. the ratio of debt. if you grow the gdp part you'll have much less. same is true for the deficits. but we need certain growth policies to do that. what's your take.

>> are these policies developing? >> well, no. they are not. at least not in a way that, you know, guys like you and those who are out there making the money and trying to grow the economy feel confident that down the road that there's going some stability, there's going to be an opportunity actually move to the next level of growth. what lanny raises is a very good point. you have the tools in place the framework, simpson-bowles and the president looks the other way. when the president comes out and makes the types of comment like he did yesterday and today it shabs that confidence. when the congresswoman, you know, innocuous comment you're shutting down the white house, really why? those have rippling effects on a broader scale that people look at and say maybe things aren't going as well. maybe they won't be as strong as kudlow says they will be and that want gets to how we project growth. >> you know, i don't understand why the president said what he

sawed. maybe it was shorthand for something. at some point debt does matter. but economic growth matters too. now, i had paul ryan on the program last night with his budget. he wants corporate tax reform as a pro growth measure. today at the business roundtable with the ceos, i ran a panel. you know what they were talking about? corporate tax reform as the single best pro growth measure. are we going get that out. house? can you all put some pressure on the president who sometimes says he's in favor of corporate tax reform? that would grow the economy and help solve the debt problem. >> larry, he actually said that when he came to meet with the house republicans today because dave camp raised this issue. mr. president there are some areas where we have common ground can we move forward on that. he mentioned the corporate tax rate to which the president said i agree the corporate tax rate is too high, we should lower it, make it flatter, fairer, that's something we can agree on and he said we have about a nine month window here, envelope he thought

in order to make something like that happen. dave said let's do it now. the president said we can't do it now because i don't agree with the same analogy for individuals. so, you know, there we need to raise revenue. we have to do it all together. if you want to see -- >> i would just say it's very frustrating to me. can i tell enthusiast. paul ryan scored the tax revenues in his budget. you know why? because they are going perm for a while. that's not such a bad thing. i didn't like the tax hike. i never like tax hikes. i'm a flat tax guy. wh but what is done is done. let's leave it alone and go to corporate tax reform. you should have heard these ceos. that's what they are talking about. that includes oil put it to you michael steele repatriating a couple million dollars that's sitting overseas. that's where the customers are. when they bring the money back

they shouldn't have to pay a penalty. >> incentivize them to bring the money home, baby. >> you buy into that -- >> that flood opens up a whole lot of gates here. >> free investment money. >> i'm in favor of amnesty for those trillions and bringing them home and in favor of immigration reform. authors consistent positions. >> i'm in favor of immigration reform. >> not you but some of my friend on the republican side. >> the right kind of immigration reform. >> amnesty for everyone. >> candice miller you were great to help us out. did he get testy. why did he say to the abc interviewers that maybe there's just too many political gaps to make a deal. do you think he came to the republican caucus because he wants to make a deal or because he just wants to be a show horse to get his sagging polls back up? >> i like to think he came really with a sincere, you know, wish to try to bridge the gap

here. look we've all be about gnashing our teeth. the house republicans aren't going anywhere. the senate democrats aren't going anywhere for a while. the president is here. we need to find some common ground and i think the president saw what happened with all of his doom and gloom about the sequester and thought republicans would cave and that did not happen. he now sees if he wants to get something really done and wants to have a legacy, hey that's fine. let's just get it done here. i think that really was a driving force of why he came today. i want to think that. >> growth, growth, growth. i'm in favor of limited government. i want spending reform. i want entitlement reform. i want growth. corporate tax reform. i even have lanny davis on corporate tax reform. bill clinton is for corporate tax reform. congresswoman candice miller thanks. here's a bad economic story. big sugar $862 million taxpayer

bailout. it's a bitter pill for free market capitalists like myself to swallow. we'll explain. this goofy, dumb, stupid, 1934 law next up on kudlow. ♪ a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down ♪ ♪ the medicine go down ♪ the medicine go down ♪ just a spoonful of sugar theps immedia -- helps the sugar go down ♪ ♪ in a most delightful way . acceler-rental.

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♪ a ♪ a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down ♪ ♪ the medicine go down ♪ the medicine go down all right. i wasn't in that group. great song. here on the kudlow report as you know we believe free market capitalism is the best path to prosperity but apparently the u.s. department of agriculture would not agree. reports say the government is poised get this, the government is going to buy 400,000 tons of sugar. that's 142 billion hershey kisses worth to bail out a couple of sugar producers. that's what this is all about. 860 odd million dollars is not a

free market. let the market price set price instead of hosing consumers. catherine, this is really an outrage, this goes back to 1934. how do we get rid of this stupid thing? >> unfortunately this is precisely the kind of thing that lives forever and ever in the bowels of the federal government. it's incredibly economically inefficient program. these sugar companies which by the way are, it's a very small number of families, not a particularly savory industry, apologies for the pun that wasn't on purpose. >> a couple of people run this whole industry. can i just read you. i read this "wall street journal" article. pardon me for interrupting. here's what you're talking about. american crystal sugar company,

amalgamated sugar corp, three capitalists feeding themselves at the public trough. >> they spend is a lot of money on lob jig. i don't even think that matters. these kind of programs give life to themselves. you have 800 million in loans that go bad because we had a bumper crop much beets this year in the midwest, sugar beets and then the government winds up spending, you know, money to buy this additional huge cash of sugar to try to support the price. by the way we tried this a few years ago it didn't work and the government wound up with a million pounds of sugar. >> now they are trying to spoon it off on the ethanol producers. why can't markets set the price of sugar and everything else for that matter? that's wrong with market price setting? >> markets can set the price and everything else for that matter if we would just let them.

>> lanny davis, what should we do with this sugar? >> i would ship all the sugar to mayor bloomberg. put it in some big beverages. >> large slurpees. >> stoirt in big gulp cups. >> is this a chance for conservatives to say we can raise revenues by listening to larry kudlow and plug up these loopholes that subsidize people in disguised tax reform. >> this is crony capitalism, crony insider payoff capitalism, is it not? >> it. it's happening at odds with itself. at the same time that the government is supporting the prices for sugar it's trying to keep prices high we're also using the farm bill to depress the price of corn syrup which is a direct competitor. it's ridiculous. it doesn't even accomplish whatever end they pretend they are trying to accomplish.

>> michael steele where are the republicans on this. >> it does sound but i think lanny is right. this is a great example that, you know, republican leadership in the house especially can go to the floor and say this is what we're talking about. this is what ticks off the american people. what will we do with 400,000 ton was sugar? >> ryan always talks about this kind of thing. paul ryan crony capitalism. >> we should talk about three companies. >> republicans never fail to miss an opportunity to take a position that 80% of the american people support instead of 20. >> why is that? is that a chronic disease? how do you rank that? >> it's completely that republicans find the losing position even when they have larry kudlow on their side. >> i'm a free market guy. i can't stand this stuff. >> the simplest clearest message is this. the government is making your

snickers bar more expensive. don't stand for it. >> by the way, if the story is right, you know what this big price drop is? 25.5 cents. it's a quarter down to 21 cents. that's what this is all about. for that it's going to cost the agricultural department $860 million. honest to god. thanks to catherine, michael steele and lanny davis you are all great. lanny's new book "crisis tales." now we move on one of the most highly rated shows in cable tv history called "the bible" and the superstar producer of the show mark burnett and his wife roma downey will join us live to talk bible. i know what you're thinking...

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can can you imagine students not studying the u.s. constitution or understanding where the phrase the handwriting on the all came from or even straight and narrow? yeah the bible has affected the world for millennium in a number of ways. it's not even studied in public schools today. our next guest penned the article "why public schools should teach the bible." i agree. here's mark burnett and his bride, emmy nominated actress

roma downey, best known for her role in "touched by an angel." very interesting day four to come on and talk about a hit show like "the bible." mark let me begin with you on this. why don't we teach the bible in public schools? what is the argument against it right now? >> well it appears to be, i think, a misreading of the intent of the law about the separation of church and state which was actually originally supposed to protect the church from the state, and you can teach the bible in public schools, it's not just as a religion and for some reason schools are just not doing that. i think what really showed us so much is this bible project, we've been traveling the country for a couple of years. is an amazing biblical illeteracy. it seemed crazy young americans were growing up and not knowing

the basic stories who david and go lynch ath was or samuel or noah. >> it's the foundation of western civilization, that's very strong statement. >> it is. it's a foundation of our art and literature. you know if you consider the works of shakespeare over 1,200 references in shakespeare alone taken directly from the bible. mark and i both were raised in europe where the bible was taught freely in school and, you know, we're not suggesting that it be taught as religion, but to be introduced to our children i think it would be doing them a big favor. >> mark, i want to go to this point. look, i like what you g g are doing. like what you guys are saying. i want to ask you this those. you teach the bible as history or you teach as literature or teach it as philosophy. but it is religious. it is religious. moses came down with the ten commandments. the bible's metaphors and

stories are all about right behavior and wrong behavior. i mean there is religion in the bible and why is that bad? >> well it's not bad. we completely believe in the bible and full believers. however, clearly there's a law that you can't teach any one religion so technically rightfully so you need to teach all religions. by the way i think all great books should be taught. it just seems crazy that the foundation of the greatest books ever and movies, you mentioned you wouldn't have "lord of the rings" or "narnia" or "the matrix." how can young americans get to age 25 or 30 doing business in south america or europe at a business meeting and someone says that kind of reminds me of david and goliath and the young american says who?

it's embarrassing. >> roma i'm like a terrier. i'm pulling on your leg here. >> "the bible" series is an introduction to the great stories. even through the television. >> your program has a religious element. i don't nene rude. i'm on your side. moses brings down the ten commandments. they are the ten commandmens not the ten suggestions. they are about behavior. they are about law. in some sense the foundation of our entire legal system. i mean the old testament, the new testament i don't know how you can separate it out. i don't want to separate it out. that's what i'm saying to both of you. >> we agree. you have to start somewhere. at the moment even though legally it can be taught in public schools as literature it's not. so the first step in the process really is getting a generation of young americans just to know the basic stories and do it one thing at a time. we love it. next week in new york we've

decided to bring in artifacts which include the first american bible which was written in algonkian and a bible that was the only bible authorized by congress and it says the american government encourages information read it. >> where was this bible you call it what? >> the aiken bible. we bring a copy of that into new york city. >> is that aiken, south carolina? >> no name of a person. >> where are your going to show it. i want to do an ad. >> we're bringing in a number of art facts including dead sea scrolls. we're bringing them into the meat-packing district of new york city. not only put the bible on television we want for free any "new york" to come down and see these ancient documents. these artifacts were previously at the vatican.

>> that's great. that is great. thank you for coming on. >> thank you so much. >> very interesting day and we all wish the pope well. we are all praying for him. your series "the bible" is spectacular. mark burnett, roma downey, thank you so much. catch "the bible" on the history. that's it for me. we'll be back tomorrow evening. don't ask. disappear! abracadabra! alakazam! [ male announcer ] and now we're making it easier to get everything for your business. and for my greatest trick! enough! [ male announcer ] because whatever you need, we'll have it or find it, and get it to you fast. staples. that was easy. we'ltoday is gonna be an, important day for us.t. you ready?